Learning to Ride (Track vs Street)
 

So I didn't know where to place this, so we will put it in the beginner thread.

So we know the age old argument. The street is no place to learn how to ride for the track, but really how useful is track riding for the street?

We got a thread brewing in my local board about learning to ride well, this is beyond just learning to ride. This is the next step.

I agree, the street is no place to learn to race, even though I treat it that way in the mountains a lot. I believe race schools and track days are the best bet because you can use raceline.

What about the other way around? Is track days more useful than street riding to learn to ride on the street?

This is where I am against track days. Track days don't prepare you for deer, oncoming vehicles, bad road conditions, gravel, and all the various shit that comes with street riding. There is just no replacing that experience to learn to ride well on the street.

So I think track riding for learning street skills is just as useful as street riding for learning track skills. What do ya'll think?

There we go, a good moto thread, now it's up to you bastards to keep it going.

I think track riding is VERY useful in learning good skills for the street. You dont have to worry about the obstacles like animals, cars or bad roads and can focus on getting to know your machine and what it will or wont do with you on the back, proper braking both on pavement and off, and develop consistency in technique.

I think it is also invaluable in learning to avoid obstacles like fellow riders and "surprises" like folks pulling out in front of you, and unplanned for events like someone crashing. You have to react instantly and think ahead to avoid putting yourself in a position you cant get out of safely (like an unsafe pass) and these are great skills for the street.

Are we talking about a brand new rider?

Trip you are pretty familiar with the good riding roads of East, TN and Western, NC. So I think you and I have the same frame of reference. Narrow lanes, gravel, traffic, road kill, blind corners etc....From most of my experiences those who are used to the track, will not push it on our type of roads the way we "locals" do. They are used to having much more room. I see it as a product of your environment, when it's what you had your teeth cut on, it seems natural to you. There is a point where one realizes the risk is too high to push it even further and then the track comes into play. Ok I'm rambling but.....

I agree with your thoughts...

Good points, and I'll add the track can help with the "lean angle meter" of a meaning help one become comfortable at greater lean angles.

I am not referring to beginners, you already know the basics. That's just it, you aren't getting those surprises on the track, so you don't know how to react to them.

no, this is learning to ride well, not learning to ride.

What I am referring to is someone that is using the street to learn how to race. You can't learn to race well on the street, there is just no replacement for track time to learn to race.

Is the same true for street riding? Can you learn to ride well on the street by using track time? Or are you missing out on a major part of your learning by not getting those surprises?

But there are surprises on the track. Like I mentioned, riders crashing in front of you, others pulling out illegally on the track in front of you, crashes that leave debris, liquid and otherwise on the track...those are surprises along the lines of what you would have to deal with on the street as well. I stand by my statement, track riding can make you a better street rider. Riding track makes you more competent, and more readily able to ride your bike to your best ability which in turn makes you a better ride on the track and street.

(It can also ruin the street riding for you. :lol:)

I didnt address street riding for racing, but while you can be a tard on the street and treat it like the track, I dont believe its a decent sub for the track time.

Surprises are supremely limited and few and far between at the track. That's why you can go 100% all the time.

You are still missing the point of the thread. What I am looking for here is the comparison. There are skills that transfer between the two, no doubt and it's completely obivious. Street riding can make you a better track rider. There is no question my time at the gap has made me decent at the track. Track riding can make you a better street rider cause you can go 100%.

I give up on trying to explain it, maybe someone will get where I am going with this thread.

Yes you can but yes you are.

There are still surprises on the track (person in front goes down, blows motor, makes stupid move, etc).

Being comfortable on your bike, knowing not to panic when something is suddenly in your line, knowing that sliding tires don't have to mean a crash, learning to acknowledge an obstacle without fixating on it, being able to brake or change line mid corner are all skill you can learn on the track that will transfer over to the mountains, canyons, etc.*

I agree with tached though that you locals have a leg up. I definitely think it is easier to go from riding aggressively on your local roads to the track than the other way around.

*After thinking about it, most of those skills are learned at the more advanced stages of track riding. Learning them on the street forces you to learn them while still in the early stages of riding.

I agree with this, I had to learn a lot of skills probably a lot sooner than I should have been attempting to learn them just out of necessity.

Which in turn makes you a better rider.

If you survive. :lol:

Bike control, bike control,. Bike control. Once you have it, an effective grasp of the maneuvers and technique in automatic muscle memory then all street issues are just a matter of situational awareness.

Track teaches effective movements better as you are presented with the complete range of manuevers several times per lap in a controlled environment that leaves you alone to concentrate 100 pct on technique.

Once you learn to operate at 100 pct, then 60 pct on the street or highway give you alot of spare attention for obstacles, traffic, ect.

I think it does help street riding. Just learning a race line can help when dealing with corners a bit on the street. it also may help avoid potential problems like high or low sides from poor throttle control.

on the track you can push your bike further and see what some of the limits are so when you ride the street it can make you safer because you know how much you may have in reserve.

many of my friends became "track only" guys, where as, i am one of the few who realy enjoys both. I think for guy slike trip and many of you down south you guys have very good/technical roads in your backyard where as others dont so they wont get as much practice as you guys do.

It is my belief that the majority of incidents are from the rider's reaction. If a rider understands what their motorcycle will do, or how to make their motorcycle perform, that reaction becomes more advanced - or, in many cases, learning to NOT react. Hearing a turtle, tar snake, squirrel, bumper, gravel made them crash - NOT reacting to many situations would make the rider better off. Repeated behavior and time with the motorcycle will make this more second nature, rather than it being a thought process. If you eliminate any possible outside distractions there is more focus on the performance rather than the reaction.

It isn't always about racing. It's usually about honing skills and learning how to make that motorcycle perform.

Nice thread :wink:

Ok, here is where I am going to go with this. Yes, romping down a country road, I have no issues, however when I get on the interstate and try to maintain decent road control can get iffy (not talking about blasting through traffic/lane splitting and such, just normal everyday legal riding.) I don't have a lot of experience in riding in cities and busy roads. Basic skills like lane position and observing rules of the road is not my strong suit at all. These are just not lessons you learn at the track or up in the mountains. This is where I think a lot of track riders would be deficient when they tried to make the switch.

Good points, esp when you can eliminate stuff like target fixation or chopping the throttle when the rear spins. I have had a few guys crash in front of me and I would always tell myself to look away and go where I want the bike to go. in th epast it would be more like wow look at that spectacular highside out in the grass followed by oh shit I am heading right for it now.

Come ride around midtown manhattan for a while that wiill teach ya few things :lol:

Street riding and track riding are two different skill sets. I've known fast track riders that were slow on the street and fast street riders that were slow on the track.

Track riding can definitely increase your safety envelope on the street. It gives you a safe environment to improve your cornering ability. If your maximum speed through that corner is 50mph, at 45 you're at 90% of your ability--you've only got 10% left. Increase your maximum speed to 60 and you've now got a 25% margin to play with.

This is where I was trying to go, sorry for my lack of finding a good explaination. Thanks Sean, good post.

I dont think its about street versus track on these skills necessarily, but actually putting these skills to use to get the practice.

Basics like you mention are something taught in MSF and should be something you are aware of as a newbie and are not something you would learn at the track. An MSF booklet for your area would teach you the book learning, and getting out to some of the more metro areas would give you the practice you'd need.

So there's the answer. It's not something you learn at track.

I know plenty of people that race/track ride a ton that are slow on the street. Why? Because they HAVE a place to ride 90%, the track.

A slow street rider does not equate an incapable rider.

You will not learn to ride in rush hour traffic at the track.

Did you really need a thread to tell you that?

(Legal) riding in an urban environment is not what many would consider "riding well", it is survival riding.

Of course not. No lanes, no traffic, no teeny boppers texting trying to kill you...definitely not something you learn on the track. You should have been more clear. :lol:

Quoted FTMFT!

thats why I offered him up a trip to manhattan on a nice afternoon LOL

Riding well doesn't have to be knee on the ground, just more than capable of riding in the environment you are in.

In my opinion track riding is an amazing tool that can teach you a lot of skills transferrable to the street.

The track can teach you how to react in certain situations and more importantly care and control of your bike. A lot of people are just unaware of what their bike is capable of and it clouds their reactions, leading to incidents.

I can see track riding 'helping' you ride on the street but by no means will is help as much as actually riding on the street. Urban riding is totally different and although track riding will help...you'll still be a n00b when you hit the city...it's just totally different.

Riding out in the country and in the mountains I can see track experience helping a great deal more.

I have a friend of mine who lives upstate and has good roads right in his backyard. Up there I can barely keep up with him, bu the knows the roads and is a skilled rider. We came down to NYC for a bike night and it was like night and day in dealing with traffic and weaving through stuff. Every few lights we had to wait till he caught up to us.

Track is an awesome place to learn how to ride better on the street and if you think it doesn't prepare you for deer then go ride summit in WV.. plenty of deer there..

I have heard plenty of deer stories down there, closest thing I came to hitting was a woodcuck chilling between turns 9 and 10.

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAUdYMaFauw

Different for everybody. Before doing any track day I was reading up on form, body postioning and all that. Then I would go out on a twisty road (the one in my sig) and practice it. I first dragged knee on the street. Granted, I was hanging so far off the bike to do it, obviously not practicing my form, I just wanted to drag a knee for the first time.

I'd say you can learn a lot of basics and fundamentals for the track on the street. Even holding lines. As long as you're between the white and yellow, hold the line. There's a shitload of variables when on the street though. Road surface, other riders/drivers, stuff you can hit if you ever come off the bike, etc. But you can apply a lot of the stuff they teach you in certain books and track day schools on the street. You just gotta keep your head on and don't push it like you would on the track. But to perfect most things, you can only do it on the track.

The more you learn on the streets (for free), the more familiar you will be with the class discussions and while you're out on the track. I think street riding can benefit track riding and vice versa.

Gotta be careful with some of that though, you can also develop a lot of bad habbits by riding on the street on your own too.

Same goes for the track.

Is that really street riding though? I would say no, just an extension of track riding. I would also say a higher percentage of harley riders are better street riders than sport bikers. Why? Because they obey the rules of the road and are generally safer riders, where we are hooligans.

So you're talking about street riding, as in, riding at a respectable pace and barely leaning through corners and such? Street riding for Harleys and street riding for sportbikes are two different things.


I'm gearing all my posts towards people that are interested in track riding/going fast.

I'd have to strongly disagree with you there.

After talking to 2 mechanic friends and watching my father do a "cruiser school" on the track, I think cruiser riders are far less skilled than sportbike riders.

Sportbike riders understand braking power, lean angle, and other fundamental concepts of what their machine can do.

A lot of cruiser riders ride their bike like it's a car and don't understand a lot of concepts that are second nature to sportbike riders (because they have to be).

Yes, street riding isn't necessiarly aggressive riding. It isn't race line. It's a different technique. If you want to go 100%, the track is the place to learn, no doubt.

You don't need to be able to run a fast gap time to be a good street rider. There are a lot of people who can't ride aggressively that are far better street riders than someone who can put up a good time at the track.

Nowhere did I mention speed. I'm not talking about being fast. :skep:

That's what I'm saying. I never go 100% on the street. But I use the street to practice certain things that help me build a good base so I can work on it more at the track. And you can practice the outside-inside-outside lines on the streets, too. You can apply track riding aspects to the street, easily.

Not sure were on the same page. I meant that someone can develop bad habbits street riding they they would need to relearn/correct at the track.

Plus at the track theres usualy classroom instruction and coaches out there riding with you that can help you correct mistakes/bad habits.

I do that quite often as well some things you can practice on the street, just not at all out speeds but I would work on my body work and some braking techniques

That's still track riding, you are just doing it on the street. Riding on the track is best practiced riding on the track. I have no question about that.

Um, no. It's riding on the street, so it's street riding. Plain and simple.

We're on the same page. People learn bad habits on the track, too.

True, like hammering it to 160 on a given straightaway :lol:

Everyone needs to know their bikes limits and capabilities. Everyone needs to pratice those responses particularly panic braking, downshift techniques, and turn in/lean/recovery. All are best learned and practiced in some safe controlled locale, like a track...

Exactly.. The track lets you push the limits so you know what your bike and you are capable of.. You can then apply that to street riding that will help you ride safer on the street - i.e. a car pulls out you have a good understanding of braking, etc.

I would strongly disagree that in general Harley riders and cruisers are more skilled.. 99% of them take the MSF, if that, and then ride.. And I ride with a lot of them and in general they are a danger to themselves and everyone else on the street..

I can tell you that riding in manahttan is nothing like the track, however the bike control and the ability to maneuver the bike around does translate from the track to the street. Really though while it will make you a better rider on the street, even in big cities and congestion, there is no replacement for just putting miles in on the street.

Dont even get me started on the msf course, that whole program is a load of BS except for someone trying to figure out which side is teh clutch

Yes, by literal definition it's street riding on the street, but you are using it like a track. That type of riding is best done on the track. I am not saying I don't do it too, but if you want to practice that type of riding there is no question on where the best place to do it is at, the track.

Legal street riding, which I am referring to is a different skill set, it's basically boring compared to what you want to do.

I am not saying they are more skilled, I am saying they are more controlled. They don't go blasting pass people on a double yellow or acting a fool in as high of percentage as sportbikers. The ones around here have basic skill enough to be good street riders. Something I am not. I generally piss off half the town when I come through on my motorcycle.

You probably do that even without the motorcycle. :lol:

It sounds more like an issue of self control than skill in the way you are stating it though. You can make the choice to NOT blast past people, to not tailgate, to be a courteous rider and share the road, that only takes courtesy and manners, not skill.

I would say courtesy and manners are a skill.

Really? Thats an interesting viewpoint.

I would consider them traits you develop as you age but should be something ingrained and taught by parents and learned as part of social growth. I know ya'll think I'm too nice and too PC, but for me, social courtesy and respecting others is a big thing, and applying it to my riding is just an extension of how I try to live my life.

Kind of a Golden Rule type thing.

I try to consider both sides of the matter. Do I want to be the asshole that scares a possible newbie off the road? And how would I appreciate being the newbie that was spooked off?

I guess it goes back to the age old question to squid or not to squid?

I save my speed for the track and the track gives me a safe place to push the limits.. on the street I ride pretty casual unless its a back road or something and even then I don't push the limits i just ride at a moderate pace instead of a death crawl like you do around the city.. too many variables on the street to be riding unsafe.. and really i have better things to spend my money on than traffic tickets - like track days and tires..

It can be both a trait and a skill depending on situation. It is something that can be learned or something that is picked up from environment. It can be honed skill and that is put to great efficiency in marketing and sales type medium.

:lol: I've been told I should be in sales, but I cant stomach it.

I see where your coming from tho. Practice always makes perfect. Next time your thinking of blasting past someone who's going slower than you want to be, stop, think about it a minute, relax, and dont do it. After awhile it should become second nature. Same with making an unsafe pass, or darting through traffic in a metro area. Ask yourself if its really a good idea to dart out into that open spot where someone could pop out from a side road and demolish you.

I have no interest in changing my riding habits. I think being an asshole in traffic gets you noticed and that means they see you. Which basically means hopefully they won't run over my ass.

This is just a discussion about street vs track.

snort


Right. Even as a rider myself, when I see someone riding like a douche in traffic I secretly hope they learn a lesson sometime, someplace. Douchebaggery like that gives the rest of us a bad image. I dont appreciate being run off the road because someone had a bad experience with some other rider.

If you want to ride like its your own personal track, take it to the track, and keep it off the roads where other people have the right to some common road courtesy.

Relax, dont do it.
When you want to step to it.
Relax, dont do it. When you wann pass....

Rae's tantric riding philosphy is very sexy...

No thanks, if you got a problem with that, tough shit.

It's totally awesome that you wish other riders to wreck.

Why be a douche trip? Because I dont agree? Poor you.

What goes around comes around.

You're the one who mentioned that you were interested in what made a better street rider and the skills involved that you apparently dont have, then turned a 180 and bragged about what a douche you like to be on the street. Make up your mind already. I just participated in the conversation and shared what works for me. If you dont like it, dont read it.

Me be a douche? I am not the one hoping ill will falls on a fellow rider. It's a douchetastic thing to say, no matter what they do.

I can choose to have an opinion that a better street rider doesn't do the things I do and then not follow that opinion. Riding the way I do is fun for me, but I am not going to make silly excuses to say it's ok or a good way to ride. It's harmful and dangerous. I like it. I just believe a better street rider will obey the rules of the road.

I am not bragging about what I do and don't suggest anyone should ride that way.

I can read it and argue my opinion, that's what makes this a discussion.

I don't have time to read through the whole thread. I think the track is good for teaching you the limits of your bike and how to handle things when you think you're coming in too hot for a turn. I can say with absolute certainty that if I had not had track time, I would have gone down on the way from your house to the rally. I came in way too hot for a couple turns, but because I've ridden on the track (even without the strom) I knew that I could hold the turn if I just looked through and trusted the tires. I only knew that because of track experience, even though that experience was on an R6 and not the strom.

Knowing how to ride and how to operate a motorcycle is one thing, but the track gave me the confidence to handle turns I wouldn't have handled well at all. Was I riding over my head on that trip? Yeah, because I hadn't been riding for 5 years, except for the past couple months. But, I was still able to handle my mistake without going down, solely because of track experience.

HA HA, yeah that was fun, but we were also well over the rules of the road as well. So we were being douches.

You are talking about two entirely different things; skill and judgment.

There is a difference between technical "skill"; the ability to use the motorcycle to it's performance limits, and judgment; which is the ability to use the proper skill at the proper or appropriate time.

A technically competent rider can be scary to ride with on the street, because he or she uses poor judgment and puts others at risk. I know a fellow who lives a few miles from the Gap....he's a whiz and will leave anybody I know and ride with in the dust.

He's also a prick to ride with in a group; he gets impatient and buzzes up the middle, he shows off constantly, ect. ect. ect.

When he shows up for a ride now, I "remember a business appointment and have to leave". I know I'm no peach to be around, but his antics are both scary and annoying.

He's far more skilled than I'll ever be, but his riding scares the crap out of me because he rides like nobody else is around; either other bikers, cagers or the locals who have to put up with his shenanigans.

For what it's worth.

:dthumb: Great post!

yep i think that sums it up