Which scenario breeds the better rider?

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Fat, well said. I couldn't agree more.


Tmall, I'm not saying you're not making a good point, it's definitely an interesting perspective,holds weight and something to think about... but driving school to riding school, they're like apples and oranges in many ways. It's a virtual impossibility to do many things in the MSF that they can do in driving school.

For starters, you can put dual controls in a car so the Instructor can take over in the event of an emergency.... Even if you did that on a bike, you can't put an instructor on the back of a motorcycle with a student. And the logistics of bringing motorcycle students out onto the street would be an absolute nightmare. A lot of these MSF GRADUATES don't even belong on the street after finishing the course, nevermind DURING the course. We tell them that accordingly and always, no matter who they are, suggest extended learning opportunities.

How long ago was it that you participated in an MSF class? I'll concede that the classroom portion is only 5 hours, but there's a LOT of knowledge packed into that as well. So if you're looking at the knowledge gained, I think the two schools are quite comparable.

I did it two years ago.. I've been riding since I was a kid. And I wanted my license officially. It was the quickest way for me to do it. The waiting list for the written test was about 6 months. The msf was available at the start of the season.

[OreoGaborio]

Sounds good... I wanted to get an idea of your point of view.

I know a LOT has changed since I took it way back in 2001, but I'm not sure how much it's developed in the last 2 since you went through the program.

[OreoGaborio]

Hey, T. I know your post wasn't directed to me, but I'd still like to address the point that you're making if I may

I agree that what you learn/practice in MSF, for the most part, is not a SPECIAL skill set that you couldn't otherwise learn on your own. I think that's KIND of what you're founding your case on but in different words, but correct me if I'm wrong.

My "counter points" to that were:

Street survival is 90% MENTAL... only 10% skill.

I also believe that new riders that are MSF graduates are LESS likely to get in an accident than new riders that are non MSF graduates with similar riding experience.

And I also have a hunch (and I have no data to back it up) that MSF RiderCoaches are POSSIBLY less likely to get in an accident than non MSF RiderCoaches with similar riding experience. I'm not necessarily saying without a doubt that RiderCoaches deserve a discount, but it'd certainly be nice! and I don't know if I agree with you that it wouldn't be deserved if we did as we're doing what we can to make the roads safer for everyone.



I also think that the insurance discount is not solely a statement by the insurance companies saying that they think MSF grads are safer, but also an incentive to take the class. Those first time riders that take the class are, without a doubt, better off than learning from a friend or on their own.

If you don't think that justifies an insurance discount, well then so be it... I stated my case. I hold no grudges and I think this is a good discussion

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Hey, T. I know your post wasn't directed to me, but I'd still like to address the point that you're making if I may

I agree that what you learn/practice in MSF, for the most part, is not a SPECIAL skill set that you couldn't otherwise learn on your own. I think that's KIND of what you're founding your case on but in different words, but correct me if I'm wrong.

My "counter points" to that were:

Street survival is 90% MENTAL... only 10% skill.

I also believe that new riders that are MSF graduates are LESS likely to get in an accident than new riders that are non MSF graduates with similar riding experience.

And I also have a hunch (and I have no data to back it up) that MSF RiderCoaches are POSSIBLY less likely to get in an accident than non MSF RiderCoaches with similar riding experience. I'm not necessarily saying without a doubt that RiderCoaches deserve a discount, but it'd certainly be nice! and I don't know if I agree with you that it wouldn't be deserved if we did as we're doing what we can to make the roads safer for everyone.



I also think that the insurance discount is not solely a statement by the insurance companies saying that they think MSF grads are safer, but also an incentive to take the class. Those first time riders that take the class are, without a doubt, better off than learning from a friend or on their own.

If you don't think that justifies an insurance discount, well then so be it... I stated my case. I hold no grudges and I think this is a good discussion

I hold no grudges either. It's obviously all opinion.

[OreoGaborio]

Indeed... and in this case I don't think EITHER of our opinions even matter... it's what the insurance companies say that really counts!

[Fleck750]

Never have taken the MSF, what is this "box" you speak of?

[OreoGaborio]

it's a 20' x 60' rectangle that you have to ride a figure 8 in. Two consecutive U turns in either direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDspJm3OPpw

He actually uses the dotted line, which makes the box 24' x 60'. We use those dimensions first when practicing.
In the evaluation the 20' x 60' box is used.

[tached1000rr]

Where do you MSF instructors feel that the box comes into play on the street in the real world? So a guy/girl can ride the hell out of a bike in the box, there are not any boxes where I ride

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by tached1000rr

Where do you MSF instructors feel that the box comes into play on the street in the real world? So a guy/girl can ride the hell out of a bike in the box, there are not any boxes where I ride

Clutch control, braking control, body position, proper steering, rider comfort with the bike, confidence in performing slow speed maneuvers, skill performing u-turns......

[OreoGaborio]

Exercise 10 - Limited-Space Maneuvers.

1 Objective - To be able to maneuver in limited spaces
...
4 With riders near U-turn box, provide demo
- Maintain overall control
- Turn handlebars and counterweight
- Keep head and eyes up, and look through paths of travel
- Coordinate clutch and throttle actions
- Maintain a safety margin

5 Provide simulated practice
- Stress handlebar turn, motorcycle lean and counterweight
- Stress head turn.

That's all straight out of the range cards for that exercise.

Here's a bit of what it says in the RiderCoach handbook.

This exercise is designed to allow riders to develop their abilities in areas with limited maneuvering space. Although considered convenience skills, these maneuvers provide riders with additional practice time on basic skills within a practical context. The skill of handlebar turn/counter weighting is emphasized, an is introduced with simulated practice. Three exercises are provided: a U-turn box, an S-turn and a perimeter turn........ For the perimeter turn... this is to develop the skills associate with turning from a stop at an intersection....

It's one of my favorite exercises It can be very tricky for them at first and when the students finally start to get it right, it really builds confidence.