breaking on the track

[ducati_atx]

Originally Posted by shmike

IMO, your typical trackday rider / amateur racer won't be any faster by modulating their rear brake than they would be by simply relaxing and riding smoothly.

Typical trackday riders would more than likely not use their rear brake unless the front fails, they are offroading and dont want to lowside by using the front, or have an "oh shit" moment and lock everything up.

[shmike]

Originally Posted by CrazyKell

Google trail braking.

I did.

Wiki has a nice read on it but it doesn't discuss the topic at hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

Edit: actually it does:

Traditionally, trail braking is done exclusively with the front brake even though trailing the rear brake will effectively slow the motorcycle, also decreasing the turning radius.

[ducati_atx]

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=trail+braking

[shmike]

Originally Posted by ducati_atx

Typical trackday riders would more than likely not use their rear brake unless the front fails, they are offroading and dont want to lowside by using the front, or have an "oh shit" moment and lock everything up.

True.

But there are always those: "I back it in sidewayz, every corner like Mick, yo." riders that think because they have practiced and are able to pull of an advanced technique without crashing, it automatically drops their lap times.

That is often not the case and that is who is was referring to.

[was92v]

I can only speak for myself, but I rarely use the rear brake even on the street unless I am in a low traction situation or have a passenger, to lessen the weight transfer and make the ride smoother. Lately I have been practicing with the rear brake and it seems to be promising, I'll have to see where that takes me. When I learned to ride (in the stone age), rear drum brakes tended to lock suddenly for no particular reason when used at all, or just didn't do anything, so I just quit using them. The rear brake on my F4i actually works pretty well.

For me, while in Hi-performance riding mode, the front brakes provides 100% of my braking. The engine provides none. while Sport riding engine braking is used some and just riding around it provides more. But, when I am really in the zone, I have very little use for the rear brake. First off, absolute control of the machine is mandatory and allowing the engine to drag the ass end around is not using my control. It takes too long to do anything, not an efficient use of time, can cause suspension agitation that you did not plan for(not your control)and can be hard on the equipment.
If you are using the engine to brake for a corner, you have lost 3-5 seconds per lap that you can't get back and it is just not precise. On the track, if you are not on the throttle
you should be on the brakes. Anything else is wasting time. Less time on the brakes+more time on the throttle=quicker lap times. Precision application of the brakes and throttle are the only way to become consistent and will give you a repeatable sequence of events. By breaking down a lap into repeatable events, you can then start drilling into each event to measure your mental performance. Actions will (or seem to)become very slow and you can try different changes to archive a kind of harmony with the bike and track that you are working your craft on. When you get it right there is no better feeling in the world. When you get it wrong, you know exactly what you did and can change it to try something else with relative safety. Oops, sorry I almost got into this too deep.

Oh, and I'm from kintucke too ya'll... But not for a while.

[Ol' Man Rider]

Originally Posted by spierce

who what when and why?

i was under the impression that on a track you down shift to slow before a turn and then accelerate through the turn.

Ideally you're braking to the apex and transitioning to throttle from the apex. So, you're slowing the bike in the turn and not before the turn. In order to accelerate through the turn you would have to slow the bike down more than needed up to the point of the apex. Then accelerate to the correct speed at the apex losing time on the front side of the turn.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally Posted by was92v

I can only speak for myself, but I rarely use the rear brake even on the street unless I am in a low traction situation or have a passenger, to lessen the weight transfer and make the ride smoother. Lately I have been practicing with the rear brake and it seems to be promising, I'll have to see where that takes me. When I learned to ride (in the stone age), rear drum brakes tended to lock suddenly for no particular reason when used at all, or just didn't do anything, so I just quit using them. The rear brake on my F4i actually works pretty well.

For me, while in Hi-performance riding mode, the front brakes provides 100% of my braking. The engine provides none. while Sport riding engine braking is used some and just riding around it provides more. But, when I am really in the zone, I have very little use for the rear brake. First off, absolute control of the machine is mandatory and allowing the engine to drag the ass end around is not using my control. It takes too long to do anything, not an efficient use of time, can cause suspension agitation that you did not plan for(not your control)and can be hard on the equipment.
If you are using the engine to brake for a corner, you have lost 3-5 seconds per lap that you can't get back and it is just not precise. On the track, if you are not on the throttle
you should be on the brakes. Anything else is wasting time. Less time on the brakes+more time on the throttle=quicker lap times. Precision application of the brakes and throttle are the only way to become consistent and will give you a repeatable sequence of events. By breaking down a lap into repeatable events, you can then start drilling into each event to measure your mental performance. Actions will (or seem to)become very slow and you can try different changes to archive a kind of harmony with the bike and track that you are working your craft on. When you get it right there is no better feeling in the world. When you get it wrong, you know exactly what you did and can change it to try something else with relative safety. Oops, sorry I almost got into this too deep.

Oh, and I'm from kintucke too ya'll... But not for a while.

Well put. Some things I don't quite fully agree with 100%, but it's all semantics, dependent upon the conditions.

side note: Just to reinforce what was said in the wiki article on trail braking... "trail braking" has NOTHING to do with the rear brake. The word "Trail" simply describes what you do with the brakes as you lean the bike over... the further you lean the more you "trail off" of the brakes.

Now, to address the original question... Downshifting has ONE primary purpose and one primary purpose only... and that is to be in the proper gear for corner EXIT. Sure, downshifting helps you slow down (some bikes more than others), but you can slow down without downshifting, right? Well, you can't power out of a corner unless you're in the right gear for it. So that's the primary purpose of downshifting.




Now, to further elaborate what happens in a corner (Since it's snowing and I'm insanely bored & feel like writing a bunch of babble), here's a little break-down of how/what/when things happen:

When powering up to the next turn, quite possibly a thousand things are going on all at once. Reference Points (landmarks that YOU form for yourself and will always change as your skill increases) help you keep track of the when/where all of these things happen.

So when approaching a turn I have reference points for (in order of which they occur) where the racing line is (at all times) where to roll off the throttle and begin braking, where to downshift, when to begin your turn, when to stop braking, where you begin getting back on the throttle, where the apex is (the point at which you being exiting the turn), where you begin picking up the bike and rolling on the throttle, where you upshift and where you've exited the turn.

All that (and more) occurs in just ONE turn on the track.

Now you may have noticed that the point that I STOPPED braking comes after the point at which I begin turning. That tells you I'm trail braking. Trail braking is NOT something you want to experiment with until your knowledge & skill is up to par with the intermediate to advanced track day enthusiasts.

There's a lot of things going on in each corner and removing trail braking from the situation removes a lot of the risk. So as a general rule, try to do all of your braking done before you turn the bike in until you're skilled enough to manage that risk.

[Mudpuppy]

Originally Posted by shmike

Ducati ATX said it.

Setting up for and coming into a turn, the vast majority of braking bias will be on the front tire.

The brakes (front or rear) can be used through the turn but you have to be smooth. Any stabbing of the brakes will land you on your head.

The rear brake can be used in settling the bike, initiating a slide, controlling a slide, reducing wheelies, changing a line, etc. but those are very advanced techniques.

IMO, your typical trackday rider / amateur racer won't be any faster by modulating their rear brake than they would be by simply relaxing and riding smoothly.

yes i agree.. 99% of people never need to use back brake.. i am sure that rossi, hayden, mladin, etc. all do and are very good at it.. the only time i use it at the track is if i am off in the grass.. i trail brake into corners but only on the front brake.. i watched a guy, who obviously read google so he thought he was smart too, at VIR try trailbraking into turn 1 after passing me, lock up the rear tire and t-bone a guy right in front of me.. so if you all pros want to try this technique feel free but do it at a track day where i am not at.. in 99.9% of skill levels rear brake is a terrible idea at the track..

[smileyman]

Seems we had a pretty good discussion on this forum about braking do's and don'ts. Did you try a search? Your style and technique will evolve just like anyones riding will. On track your trying to "set" your corner speed and not stop, so you use a different technique and mental approach than yuo do on the street.

If your a novice concentrating on just the front brake will help you learn to modulate and judge until you are better and more experienced. Trail braking is a good trick to learn later on and rear brakes are another handy thing to add and work on later. Don't worry about developing on style for fear you cannot learn another later. You can and will if you work on it. The best riders have all these tricks down and know when to use each approach. They have become Jedi!