Passing at the track

[Sean]

Some orgs here have a no inside passing rule, which is stupid IMO and it makes it a bitch to get around someone that isn't courteous. The key is to get up to A group so you can pass them wherever you want.

[azoomm]

Originally Posted by Sean

Some orgs here have a no inside passing rule, which is stupid IMO and it makes it a bitch to get around someone that isn't courteous. The key is to get up to A group so you can pass them wherever you want.

That someone shouldn't have to be "courteous." Sean, you know better

Passing is hinky in most inexperienced groups to begin with. Passing on the inside simply encourages people to act on their impatience. Stalk, learn how predictable that person is, then pass where you can do it safely. This is what we practice.

[The Awesome]

Originally Posted by azoomm

Passing on the inside simply encourages people to act on their impatience.

There are two major problems with passing on the outside. First, it often requires you to be significantly faster than the person you are passing, and two, it leaves you directly in the path of a crashing motorcycle/rider if that person happens to go down while you are trying to ride around the outside of them. Inside passing is MUCH easier. It's fast, it's safer for the passer, and it can be done virtually anywhere on the track. Watching national level riders get through traffic is a thing of beauty, because they can do it virtually anywhere without losing time, and with minimal disruption to the slower riders. The better you are the less patience is needed, because in reality, there is almost always room.

[smileyman]

Smileyman's rule numba 1. Someone is always faster.

Smileyman's rule Numba 2. Karma is a bitch.

Hold your line, leave some room on the outside of the straights, and have fun

The faster rider usually carries more corner speed and gets a better drive no matter hisline. He or she can pass on the straight if you leave hime 18 inches. If your real squeamish better make that 36 inches...

[Captain Morgan]

She's questioning my reasoning for looking behind me and waving people by on my trackday this weekend. Here's the full story, if you haven't seen it in the other thread.

I was on the V-strom on the track. It was sportbiketracktime. If any of you have ever ridden any of their events, you know they have classroom instruction for beginners and then they take the beginners out in groups of 4 or 5 riders with an instructor. I didn't want to ride in a group of people like that and wanted to ride my own pace. The only way to do that was in intermediate. I was the slowest person in the group, by far, simply because of the bike I was on. I scraped peg numerous times and the back end got loose a few times. I was also running the stock "Death Wings" on the bike. I simply couldn't go much faster without losing it.

I am fully aware that it's the passing rider's responsibility to pass safely and I maintained a consistent line on the track to allow them to do so. However, out of courtesy for the other riders on the track, I would look behind me in certain stretches where it was safe to do so, and I would move off the line so they could pass.

Is there really something wrong with being courteous to other riders that have paid good money for a track day and want to push it to the limit and not be held up by a guy riding a much slower bike?

ETA: I did consider dropping down to the beginner group after the first session in intermediate, but was told I was doing fine and it was ok to stay where I was.

[azoomm]

Originally Posted by The Awesome

There are two major problems with passing on the outside. First, it often requires you to be significantly faster than the person you are passing, and two, it leaves you directly in the path of a crashing motorcycle/rider if that person happens to go down while you are trying to ride around the outside of them. Inside passing is MUCH easier. It's fast, it's safer for the passer, and it can be done virtually anywhere on the track. Watching national level riders get through traffic is a thing of beauty, because they can do it virtually anywhere without losing time, and with minimal disruption to the slower riders. The better you are the less patience is needed, because in reality, there is almost always room.

Clarification, novice and intermediate passing on the inside is dangerous. They have all watched the pros do it. The majority of them have the single goal of "getting a knee down." And, if that means stuffing someone going into a corner letting them brag about how they were Ricky Racer at the track over the weekend passing people, then they will do that.

Most orgs [including my own] don't allow passing in turns for this reason. That is, especially in Novice groups. Learning to hold a line and be confident with that line is sometimes a large enough lesson without someone else in the peripheral.

Derf's note about pit lane - finding your own personal space on the track filled with parades - is IMHO the best way to deal with rules about passing.

[The Awesome]

Originally Posted by azoomm

Clarification, novice and intermediate passing on the inside is dangerous..[snip]..Most orgs [including my own] don't allow passing in turns for this reason. That is, especially in Novice groups.

I understand holding novice riders back from passing in corners. The issue I have is organizations that allow passing in corners, but only on the outside. There is certainly nothing wrong with passing on the outside, but opportunities to do it are few and far between compared to a traditional inside maneuver, so new riders should start working on that very early on. If riders were better at passing across the board, track days would be much less frustrating. Having your first opportunity to pass traditionally come when you are grouped in advanced with a bunch of racers and seasoned track riders is a bad situation. Not only will you have trouble filtering through traffic, but you will be unprepared for the maneuvers that faster riders will be putting on you.

Which is a nice segue into...

Originally Posted by Captain Morgan

Is there really something wrong with being courteous to other riders that have paid good money for a track day and want to push it to the limit and not be held up by a guy riding a much slower bike?

From the perspective of a faster amateur rider, I do NOT want a slow rider to try to help me pass them. As I approach a slower rider, I already know exactly what I am going to do to get around them when I get there. When riders alter their line, look behind and slow down, or do anything else that is unpredictable, it changes the situation from a calculated maneuver to an educated guess. Educated guesses can end badly if one or both of the riders guess wrong. Some of the closest calls I ever had were scenarios exactly like this.

When slower riders do this, it's often because the faster rider caught them in a spot they personally find difficult/impossible to pass in, therefore they have no idea what the faster rider is about to do to get around them. To execute the pass, the faster rider is counting on the slower one to maintain a predictable race line. If the slower rider becomes aware of the presence of the faster rider and tries to "give up" to allow the faster rider by, they can easily create a collision scenario.

The best thing a slow rider can do for everyone else on the track is to ignore what's behind them and ride in a predictable and controlled manner.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by azoomm

That someone shouldn't have to be "courteous." Sean, you know better

When you're not allowed to pass in the turns and they ride the very outside line of the track on the straights there is no legal way to pass them.

[tommymac]

Originally Posted by azoomm

That someone shouldn't have to be "courteous." Sean, you know better

Passing is hinky in most inexperienced groups to begin with. Passing on the inside simply encourages people to act on their impatience. Stalk, learn how predictable that person is, then pass where you can do it safely. This is what we practice.

Thats more or less what I do, intermediate can be a free for all with the difference in speeds and throw in a few knuckleheads. I would catch up to soem guys and if theyre consistent I know where I can get around them. I know my lines are not 100% perfect but am rathe rclose and am prety consistent so guys can get around me easily.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally Posted by Sean

Some orgs here have a no inside passing rule, which is stupid IMO and it makes it a bitch to get around someone that isn't courteous. The key is to get up to A group so you can pass them wherever you want.

While it cerainly does take away some opportunities and makes things more difficult for the passer, no inside passing rules make for a much safer and less intimidating track day environment. The last thing a novice track rider needs is to be tipping into a corner and have someone come up their inside, especially if they're not used to it or expecting it.

We have no inside passing (after tip-in) at our events and we really stress courteous riding. We encourage people to look back AFTER they have established themselves on the front straight and if there's a bike behind them we advise that it might be a good idea to not accelerate as much as you could, give the bike behind you an opportunity to pass, then give them at least a corner before you attempt a re-pass as chances are they're quicker in the corners than you are. We also stress the fact that you don't need to have perfectly clear track in front of you or be going all out 100% to have fun.

We've had very few complaints with this approach.

Me personally, I have no issue riding behind slower riders. Frustration with the person in front of you is a choice; I choose to not be frustrated as I know I have options. If I want clear track and can't work my way through traffic, I'll just pit in and tell whoever is working pit lane that I want space. It's as simple as that and it only takes 30 seconds as opposed to laps and laps of fighting with other riders, trying to force questionable passes.




The last point I'll make for now is that the one thing I see repeatedly with riders who are getting frustrated that they can't pass, is that they're riding ON the rear wheel of the bike in front of them..... GIVE THEM SPACE! This helps YOU relax a bit & maybe formulate a "game plan" and it also gives you a chance to build up some momentum coming out of a corner so that by the time you reach them you've already built up more speed than they have, making the pass a lot easier. If you're ON their rear tire coming out of a corner then it comes down to a drag race to the next corner that you may or may not win. Make the pass based on your skill as a rider, not your bike's capabilities.