MotherQUACKING tapout puny biffact trackin douchebaggery to the 100th degree.

[JoJoYZF]

Originally Posted by marko138

I'm not really into MMA but even I know Lesnar's ground work isn't up to par...especially with his background.

Now if only those that pay a good amount of attention could realize that. Im not saying hes not a decent fighter, Im simply saying that beyond his stand up and his few takedowns, he has nothing else in his arsenal. He has no submission skills and very limited weapons as far as a ground game in general. If he works on that he can be pretty good, until then he is basically a boxer in an mma fight.

[marko138]

But he was a wrestler right? He should be good on the mat.

[OneSickPsycho]

So we've gone from Lesnar has no ground game and is all stand up, to Lesnar's ground game is weak because he doesn't have any jujitsu skills.

I submit to you that Lesnar's stand up is not strong, he's just insanely powerful. I also submit to you that he is a monster at taking people down and with his ridiculous power, is able to inflict massive amounts of damage.

I agree with the majority of what FT BSTRD said, but I would not dismiss Lesnar as a stand-up only fighter. The man can take you down and over-power you... At least for now, that's all he needs. The future may be different...

If you get a monster jujitsu guy in there that can match Lesnar's power, then yeah, he'd get smoked. Is Mir powerful enough to stop a thinking Lesnar who doesn't get sloppy? I don't think so.

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by marko138

But he was a wrestler right? He should be good on the mat.

He is good on the mat... just as a wrestler.

[marko138]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

He is good on the mat... just as a wrestler.

I'm just saying that as a wrestler you would think that would lend itself to a stronger mat game.


Though, I was a wrestler and I was better on my feet.

[JoJoYZF]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

So we've gone from Lesnar has no ground game and is all stand up, to Lesnar's ground game is weak because he doesn't have any jujitsu skills.

I submit to you that Lesnar's stand up is not strong, he's just insanely powerful. I also submit to you that he is a monster at taking people down and with his ridiculous power, is able to inflict massive amounts of damage.

I agree with the majority of what FT BSTRD said, but I would not dismiss Lesnar as a stand-up only fighter. The man can take you down and over-power you... At least for now, that's all he needs. The future may be different...

If you get a monster jujitsu guy in there that can match Lesnar's power, then yeah, he'd get smoked. Is Mir powerful enough to stop a thinking Lesnar who doesn't get sloppy? I don't think so.

I think we finally agree on what lesnar is in the octagon. Hes a fucking beast, theres no two ways about it. He has a decent stand up and decent takedowns, and teamed up with his power, its very tough for any opponent to deal with.

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by marko138

I'm just saying that as a wrestler you would think that would lend itself to a stronger mat game.


Though, I was a wrestler and I was better on my feet.

Again, it's not that his ground game is weak in particular, it's just that he has no jujitsu skills. Every time I've seen Lesnar on the ground, he's in control. Does he look like he's going to submit anyone? No. Does he look like he's a ground game phenom? No. He's still in control.

I was a terrible wrestler... wish I would have gotten into boxing or something instead. I'm much better on my feet than on my ass.

[Corey]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

Again, it's not that his ground game is weak in particular, it's just that he has no jujitsu skills. Every time I've seen Lesnar on the ground, he's in control. Does he look like he's going to submit anyone? No. Does he look like he's a ground game phenom? No. He's still in control.

I was a terrible wrestler... wish I would have gotten into boxing or something instead. I'm much better on my feet than on my ass.

Agreed. Lesnar doesn't have a complete ground game, but he has the size and the wrestling background to control someone on the ground. If his previous fights show anything though, it's that he's making amazing progression in adding in more pieces to make himself a more complete fighter. His fight with Mir was a perfect example of making a rookie mistake and leaving himself completely exposed to submission in spite of appearing to have the upperhand. In his fight against Herring, you could see a far more cautious and calculating fight, with a strategy that seemed to include not putting himself in the same situation again. If anything, the Couture fight showed he could stand and fight. There were so many people who were damn sure the guy couldn't take a punch and that he would fold if even a glancing blow connected. It also showed him continuing to be cautious and find a balance that allows him to exploit his strengths and carefully guard his weaknesses. How he handles Mir in a rematch will go a long way towards showing if he's made actual gains in experience and training, or if he'll be stuck as a gateway fighter.

It was early to give the guy a title shot, but at this point, in that division particularly, who fucking cares? The heavyweight division in UFC was a little thin on name recognition. Past Couture and Lesnar, what do you have? Heath Herring? Big fuckin deal. Cheik Congo? Until this last fight (and even including this last fight really) he's been hit and miss. Half his cards seem to have been on the undercard and not televised. Gabriel Gonzaga? Same thing, hit and miss. He's got a hell of a highlight reel knock out of Mirko Cro Cop, but he's got some ugly losses also. Even Mir has been questionable since his motorcycle accident fucked him all up. It's only now that he's starting to show his old form. Could you honestly put together a fight card that will draw numbers with any of the fighters who is not Couture as the headline? Hell, even Lesnar vs Herring was a co-headliner. So I no longer mind Lesnar having a title shot if it drums up more interest in their weakest division.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by Corey

Agreed. Lesnar doesn't have a complete ground game, but he has the size and the wrestling background to control someone on the ground. If his previous fights show anything though, it's that he's making amazing progression in adding in more pieces to make himself a more complete fighter. His fight with Mir was a perfect example of making a rookie mistake and leaving himself completely exposed to submission in spite of appearing to have the upperhand. In his fight against Herring, you could see a far more cautious and calculating fight, with a strategy that seemed to include not putting himself in the same situation again. If anything, the Couture fight showed he could stand and fight. There were so many people who were damn sure the guy couldn't take a punch and that he would fold if even a glancing blow connected. It also showed him continuing to be cautious and find a balance that allows him to exploit his strengths and carefully guard his weaknesses. How he handles Mir in a rematch will go a long way towards showing if he's made actual gains in experience and training, or if he'll be stuck as a gateway fighter.

It was early to give the guy a title shot, but at this point, in that division particularly, who fucking cares? The heavyweight division in UFC was a little thin on name recognition. Past Couture and Lesnar, what do you have? Heath Herring? Big fuckin deal. Cheik Congo? Until this last fight (and even including this last fight really) he's been hit and miss. Half his cards seem to have been on the undercard and not televised. Gabriel Gonzaga? Same thing, hit and miss. He's got a hell of a highlight reel knock out of Mirko Cro Cop, but he's got some ugly losses also. Even Mir has been questionable since his motorcycle accident fucked him all up. It's only now that he's starting to show his old form. Could you honestly put together a fight card that will draw numbers with any of the fighters who is not Couture as the headline? Hell, even Lesnar vs Herring was a co-headliner. So I no longer mind Lesnar having a title shot if it drums up more interest in their weakest division.

I agree. Lesnar was added to provide SOME spark of interest in an otherwise lack luster weight class. Mir is definitely the best of the bunch besides Lesnar. Right now they are the Leonard/Hagler of the UFC heavyweight division.

Without BJJ, MMA is Muay Tai with the permission to tackle someone and punch them while they are down. The dimensionality that BJJ brings is in keeping your opponent on the defensive even when they appear to have the advantage.

I wrestled. Once you got your opponent to his back, the game was over. Lesnar came from that world. He can obviously punch. If he gets a mit on you, you're done. What the fight with Mir shows is that Lesnar hasn't learned how to recognize and defend a submission. It isn't enought just to know how to utilize a BJJ submission. An MMA fighter must also be able to recognize when one is being positioned for implementation. Mir attempted about 6-7 different submissions in their last fight. I doubt that Lesnar recognized ANY of them. Also, if you are most comfortable with punching and wrestling, in a fight you aren't going to call on the one or two "tricks" you have learned. If you start as a BJJ artist, your FIRST thought is "Position, Control, Submission". Lesnar has "get on top and punch" running through his head.

Here are some of the tools Mir has in HIS toolbox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn6XYIq4Y-Y


Now, how many he CAN use on Lesnar is questionable. Most of these moves are going to be difficult because of Lesnar's size, but Mir is VERY flexible for a heavy weight. Lesnar is not. Lesnar's size is a real hinderance to him becoming a better BJJ fighter. He will never be able to develop the flexibility to do most of the moves of BJJ. Arm locks, leg locks, chokes, sure. He can do those but his mass is going to create some real burdens. Lesnar is like rolling up a phone book vs. rolling up a magazine.

If Lesnar fights a better boxer than him and if he fights someone like Liddell who is great at splaying out against the shot, what has he got? He has no offensive tools. He is left waiting to counter whatever his opponent chooses to do. That is not a very tenable position because you are now letting your opponent dictate how the fight will progress.

What happens if your opponent is as good as you are at shooting in and completing the takedown. What will Lesnar do on his back? How good is he at defending against his guard being passed? What weapons does he have to submit someone from the bottom position? Again, he has to wait for his opponent to make a mistake.

I just see Lesnar as a narrow fighter in a shallow pool of talent. I believe Mir is probably the best in that area. Couture is too old. Again, he is version 1.0. Once you are able to parry his bull run and if you are able to fend off his take down shots, he isn't much else. Were he downsized and in any other weight class, he would be an also ran.

[Lucky3623]

I missed the fights, but caught some highlights. Forrest is a pussy... and will always be in my eyes. No one loses and cries in the cage, unless you retire from a long productive career or your mother just died trying to save you...

I am glad he lost. I, unlike most of you, like Rashaad. Not as a person, I think he is an asshole, but as a fighter. That right hand of his is proven again and again. He is quick, has good ground skills, and has shown deffinite knockout power. I want to see him go against Anderson Silva.

And I can't wait until Frank Mir get's his head pounded in by Lesnar. Not a big Lesnar fan, but I really don't like Mir either, his first few fights after his MC accident sucked, but he seems to have grown some balls since then...