Bling vs Bang

[OTB]

Originally Posted by itgirl

OTB, did you explain all this to him before starting the work? i understand it is up to the individual to do research, but if i am bringing my bike to a mechanic i expect them to be able to explain things to me. after all, if i was the expert i would be doing it myself, not paying someone to do it for me. you may have done exactly what he asked, but to do it without complete explanation is slightly negligent on your part. we are simple people, you must make us understand. then if we insist on forging ahead it will be our own stupid fault if it doesn't work out.

Negligent? I guess by stretching the bounds of negligence to the absurd. Guy has been using race gas all summer; all he asked us to do was dyno it to find the best one and map his system for it.

I didn't sell him the gas...I didn't even recommend that he use it. He brought the gas, told me he had been using it, asked us to do the work. Told me the only thing that mattered was he wanted the most power. Period.

I guess that's why we have so many lawyers. A guy buys a five gallon can of stuff that has so many warning stickers on it you can barely find the name of it; IT COMES with an MSDS sheet stickied to it. IT SAYS IN BOLD LETTERS THAT THE STUFF IS HIGHLY CAUSTIC TO FUEL SYSTEMS: DO NOT STORE VEHICLE WITH FUEL IN SYSTEM! It gives specific directions on removing the fuel after use and flushing with regular pump gas.

I know I'm just a silly-billy, but if I just paid $26.00 a gallon (YES! MR12 is $130 for 5 gallon can) for super-duper racing pooper I'd wanna know a little bit about it....wouldn't you?


My whole initial reason for the thread was based on making assumptions and how a lot of deciding on the "best" course of action needs to be based on asking questions, and based on the answer to those questions, recommending a reasonable course of action to achieve results.

If somebody tells you, "I only care about achieving "A". This is what I have, this is what I want you to do". ; then, when the results are in, he says; "Ya, but what about "B"?, I don't want "B"." What do you do?

Another example:

A fellow came to us with his VTX1800; he brought with him a high-compression kit, pipes, a high-lift cam and a competition clutch kit (extra friction plate, a stiffer basket and stiffer springs)... asked us to install them. We did so, gave him back the bike.

He brought it back a week later, said the bike "wasn't fast enough, I expected it to be a lot faster, and the clutch was too stiff. Fix the bike to make it faster and fix the clutch or give me a refund".

I explained to him that

A. A competition clutch is stiff for a reason; it's to keep the clutch from slipping under full throttle loads, it never was meant for street cruising.

B. We have no way of knowing what the baseline hp/torque of the bike was; we offered the initial baseline dyno run before the work began, but his response was that it was "Too expensive" ($35!...he had $3000 tied up in parts!). We had dynoed it after to properly map it, but it wouldn't tell us if it had gone up or down. The bike was running properly (no hesitation, no flat spots no running issues). Ass-dyno numbers don't count.

C. As we hadn't sold him the parts, we couldn't warrant either the performance of the parts not their suitability for his application.

After doing a lot of research and calls to the companies that built the parts, we found out that in order to make the kind of power he was expecting with the mods he made, he would need to get a high-flow intake (no longer made, co. went out of business), bigger throttle bodies, decked heads and oversize valves, plus some crank work to keep the thing from coming apart. A LOT more money.

On top of that, after doing another teardown and checking part numbers, the cam company had sent the guy the wrong cam. We ended up machining a cam gear and re-degreeing it to work better.

So who is at fault... the clowns that sold the guy the go-fast pieces without telling the guy the whole story, the cam company for screwing up, or the owner, for not doing the research before he dropped $6k on a bike that was barely worth that at the time he did the work.

I gotta tell you, in the eyes of the customer, WE were at fault, even though the bike was assembled and tuned properly.

We helped the guy out, I did the research this guy should have done before he spent the money, we cut him a deal on the second teardown and rebuild; done right with flowed heads and a new intake system it made another 30 rw HP.

A week after he got the bike back, it was stolen.

The insurance company paid him off, he bought a new bike (a Warrior) and now we're modding THAT one for him.........with better expectations.....







So, after all that, who is responsible for making an informed decision?













The guy with the wallet, IMHO.

[itgirl]

i still stand by the fact that the person i am paying should be a voice of reason. if i choose to ignore that, then the fault lies on me. just sayin'...

[OTB]

Originally Posted by itgirl

i still stand by the fact that the person i am paying should be a voice of reason. if i choose to ignore that, then the fault lies on me. just sayin'...

...and I agree. If you're paying somebody for RACE GAS... Then they oughta clue you in to what you are buying and the suitability of it for your intended use........


He were paying us to map his bike based on his intended use.....

Go back to my initial post....

[OTB]

By the same token, we DO ask folks to fill out an information sheet when they come in for any type of tuning, be it suspension, dyno or engine performance work. Besides the regular info, we ask them what they are looking to achieve, what is most and least important, why they chose the modification that they did, ect.

A LOT of shops won't install stuff they haven't sold to the person for just this reason; they don't know what the person has or has not been told (or if the claims are even TRUE or not). We are sensitive to people's pocketbooks; a lot of folks buy stuff on the internetz and then bring it to us for installation. Many folks get the wrong parts, or buy something inappropriate for the intended use and then get pissed. Is it REALLY my fault because I am the bringer of bad news?

In suspensions, we sell Race Tech, Ohlins, Penske and Elka; we sell Dynotune and Bazazz for FMS; we sell Leo Vince, Yosh, and custom race pipes; we work on all the Japanese bikes, new and old, Truimphs KTM's and Ducs, street bikes, dirtbikes, racebikes and cruisers. We fabricate just about anything someone could need. All with just 4 guys.

We are VERY careful about what we sell; most of our business has been by word of mouth through the racer's grapevine. Most of our clients come back time after time.

And most of the problems we encounter are because people don't tell us what they REALLY expect, or interrupt when I'm doing my information gathering and tell me "I just want you to put it on; I'm not interested in that other stuff."

OK...you're the boss.

I will tell you that one of the big issues we've had is with people's expectations from what they may have read; ie. motorcycle mags and websites.

All the big hoopla over the BMW S1000RR in the press has lead to some VERY po'd folks. Motorcyclist touted the "190HP BMW"....(they don't tell you on the cover it's crank HP). So we get folks who want their BMW's dyno'd and then get pissed cause it only makes 174 at the RW. Even when you explain to them beforehand that RW hp is different from crank hp, and that every dyno will give a different reading and that humidity and temperature can have a 2-3% difference on actual raw numbers.

And don't get me going about the guys who come back a week later with $3600 Akropovic full race systems and a Bazazz unit they bought from some internet site based on some "expert" on one of the boards who tells them they should see 195-198 hp with THIS downloaded map... only to find out we can only coax another 4 hp out of the bike on pump gas, and that even with a custom map he might only see another 1-1.5 peak hp by leaning it out a bunch more.

Don't believe everything you read on the internetz........

[Amber Lamps]

Yikes you sure can type! I've always felt that its a combination of things that make for a successful modification. I've been where the customer was and I've been where you are...neither position is enviable for sure.

[OTB]

Originally Posted by Amber Lamps

Yikes you sure can type! I've always felt that its a combination of things that make for a successful modification. I've been where the customer was and I've been where you are...neither position is enviable for sure.

Actually, I'm a slow, lousy typist. It takes me a long time to put together a decent post...but I try to communicate to the best of my meager abilities.

And yes, it can be frustrating on either side of the service counter. It's all about expectations and understanding.

[the chi]

I can understand if you had told the guy to expect "a" results, and he didnt get them, but you didnt, so really, I dont think he has any right to be upset with you. Doesnt mean he wont be, but YOU or the the shop didnt guarantee him the results he expected from whatever source he thought was legit, thats his fault for assuming without doing the research.

If you take your bike into a shop and they tell you they are going to do a, b, and c and you can expect x results and you dont get that, then thats when you'd have the right to be upset.

[Homeslice]

You should probably have a policy saying that you won't install internal engine parts unless they were ordered by your shop, and that you will do your best to price-match if you do so.

Either that, or the customer must bring documentation and invoice for their parts, with contact information so that you could have called the supplier to verify the camshaft is actually the correct one. And if you can't contact or verify anything, you won't proceed.

[the chi]

Im actually surprised ya'll install parts brought to you. Shops around here and back in Florida where I lived would refuse to even install tires for less than a ridiculous fee and refused to install anything else.

[azoomm]

itgirl, you understand that race gas isn't something you can just walk up the pump and purchase, right? It is a very intentional purchase, typically by those that understand full well that not only can they not leave it in the machine - but, they can never put any other fuel into it.

Originally Posted by OTB

...and I agree. If you're paying somebody for RACE GAS... Then they oughta clue you in to what you are buying and the suitability of it for your intended use........


He were paying us to map his bike based on his intended use.....

Go back to my initial post....

The guy was clearly an idiot. Reminds me of the guy that would come into the shop and weigh tires. He didn't want to buy the best tire composite - he wanted the LIGHTEST tire.

You can't fix crazy. Sometimes people get so hung up on what they think is an "easy" way to buy fast that they can't let go.