9/11

[shmike]

Originally Posted by KSGregman

I was at work at Staples in Framingham, MA...overheard my OA talking on the phone to her daughter in NYC say "A plane hit the World Trade Center...what?!" Didn't think much of it...thought it must be weather related...small plane lost in the fog...something like that. Hit CNN.com....servers bombed ...ABCNews.com....same thing....it's like the entire Internet shit the bed at once...we all walked downstairs to the cafeteria as there were many TVs there....came around in the corner and the first thing I saw was the first Tower falling.

I don't think I've got over the shock....or anger...from that day yet.

My situation was similar.

I heard it on the radio on the way in to work. They said it was a small plane and it didn't seem like a big deal.

Once I got to the office a client came in and gave us an update. We were trying to stay informed via the web.

Like Gregman said, the internet was worthless (no TV at the office) so our updates were spotty. By 10am we had closed the office and went home to watch the events unfold.

[Mudpuppy]

I saw a documentary on conspiracy theories and then the "experts" disproving them about 9/11.. now before i thought hmm that is an interesting theory but based on what premise? the documentary was supposed to discredit all the conspiracy theories.. all it did was discredit itself and make the conspiracy theories seem more valid at times.. there was interesting information.. like how the flights turned off their transponders - i either never heard that or didn't pay attention to that.. but if you see the picture of the air traffic controller's screen it is pretty amazing to see 4,500 blips on there.. and i could see why if you lost a blip how it would be very hard to relocate it especially if it just took an erratic course.. but it's hard for me to believe that in this day of technology that there isn't some backup transponder or way to locate a plane using a satellite, etc. seems like their tracking methods are pretty 1950.. and the screen shot of the 4,500 blips - does someone say in pittsburgh look at the entire united states? i would think that overall map is a general reference but they must zoom in to the immediate area making it less overwhelming to view? because that screen looked like an old atari game or something and not useful at all..

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Mudpuppy

I saw a documentary on conspiracy theories and then the "experts" disproving them about 9/11.. now before i thought hmm that is an interesting theory but based on what premise? the documentary was supposed to discredit all the conspiracy theories.. all it did was discredit itself and make the conspiracy theories seem more valid at times.. there was interesting information.. like how the flights turned off their transponders - i either never heard that or didn't pay attention to that.. but if you see the picture of the air traffic controller's screen it is pretty amazing to see 4,500 blips on there.. and i could see why if you lost a blip how it would be very hard to relocate it especially if it just took an erratic course.. but it's hard for me to believe that in this day of technology that there isn't some backup transponder or way to locate a plane using a satellite, etc. seems like their tracking methods are pretty 1950.. and the screen shot of the 4,500 blips - does someone say in pittsburgh look at the entire united states? i would think that overall map is a general reference but they must zoom in to the immediate area making it less overwhelming to view? because that screen looked like an old atari game or something and not useful at all..

Was it on the history channel? I saw the same show and I thought the exact opposite. I thought the conspiracy nuts got owned in it. That show is very old though, it was made only a few years after. So a lot of the info is outdated based on new reports, they know a lot more about most of the topics.

You are very spot on about air traffic control. It was very old tech back then. They had no reason to update it and all you had to do was turn off the transponder to make your blip have no information associated with it. 9/11 vastly improved our air traffic control over 100x what it was. They saw no issue with using very old methods because it worked fine until that day. Turning off the transponder only made your blip unknown. Air traffic control could still see you on their screens, but they wouldn't be able to tell what flight you were.

[CasterTroy]

Originally Posted by Porkchop

Where were you on 9/11?

Watching the "Today show" in the hospital holding my baby daughter (who was born 4 hrs before the first plane hit)

They went from Matt over to the towers, and we saw the second plane hit live.

9/11 is a bitter-sweet day for us...as many lost their lives, but we gained one very important one.

[Mr Lefty]

Originally Posted by Mudpuppy

I saw a documentary on conspiracy theories and then the "experts" disproving them about 9/11.. now before i thought hmm that is an interesting theory but based on what premise? the documentary was supposed to discredit all the conspiracy theories.. all it did was discredit itself and make the conspiracy theories seem more valid at times.. there was interesting information.. like how the flights turned off their transponders - i either never heard that or didn't pay attention to that.. but if you see the picture of the air traffic controller's screen it is pretty amazing to see 4,500 blips on there.. and i could see why if you lost a blip how it would be very hard to relocate it especially if it just took an erratic course.. but it's hard for me to believe that in this day of technology that there isn't some backup transponder or way to locate a plane using a satellite, etc. seems like their tracking methods are pretty 1950.. and the screen shot of the 4,500 blips - does someone say in pittsburgh look at the entire united states? i would think that overall map is a general reference but they must zoom in to the immediate area making it less overwhelming to view? because that screen looked like an old atari game or something and not useful at all..

I can't speak for their technology then, but what I've seen from the AF, and what I've been told by the ATC that I know, they only see a set area. they only have "control" over a smaller area. others, however can track flights from origin to destination.

I don't know who or how they do it in the civilian world, to be honest what I just said is all I know about the Military side.

oh one more thing, they each have flights to track. so you're not stare'n at 4500 blips trying to track each one, you're tracking a set number, the others are tracked by other ATC (air traffic controllers)

I'd assume that civilians operate very similarly because the certification is the same.


Razor might be able to chime in here, as he is an AF Navigator... then again... he is an officer and probably has no idea

[Razor]

3 main types of Air Traffic Controls: Tower control - deconflicts take offs and landings, Approach/Departure Controls - works airspace deconfliction out a little further (relative) until aircraft are cleared onto their filed flight plan, Center Control (ie Atlanta Center, New York Center, Los Angeles Center) who control deconflictions along the route of flight. Each Control does have numerous controlers (dictated by the number of aircraft needing controlling, not sure of the ratio though).

IFF (Identify Friend Foe) transponders work by dialing in a frequncy or "Squawk". For example, Delta 967 get directed by Center to Squawk 7100. Delta 967 dials it in and flashes it momentarily which allows Center to "Tag" their blip on the RADAR scope so now they know it is Delta 967. If you turn the transponder off, you essentially detag your blip. If you are in a busy area (New York, Boston, Atlanta) you will quickly be lost in the clutter. So they didnt really disappear, they just got lost in the clutter. There is no other way of tracking the aircraft unless it crashes, at which point the IFF transponder will automatically begin to transmit an emergency code, usually on Guard frequency.

And of course you can always fly under the RADAR's scan envelope and avoid detection by controls all together...

But what do I know, right Ebbs??

[Particle Man]

At one point didn't civilian ATC only have transponder receivers (ie no actual "real" RADAR) so if an aircraft had no transponder it was pretty much invisible? I may have read that incorrectly somewhere.

[TopGun]

I was on my Honeymoon after being married on September 8th. We were in the Pocono's. still seemed like a bad Tom Clancy movie, I had been to the WTC in 96 for fleet week, so seeing those buildings come down definitely played hell on me.

[Mr Lefty]

Originally Posted by Razor

3 main types of Air Traffic Controls: Tower control - deconflicts take offs and landings, Approach/Departure Controls - works airspace deconfliction out a little further (relative) until aircraft are cleared onto their filed flight plan, Center Control (ie Atlanta Center, New York Center, Los Angeles Center) who control deconflictions along the route of flight. Each Control does have numerous controlers (dictated by the number of aircraft needing controlling, not sure of the ratio though).

IFF (Identify Friend Foe) transponders work by dialing in a frequncy or "Squawk". For example, Delta 967 get directed by Center to Squawk 7100. Delta 967 dials it in and flashes it momentarily which allows Center to "Tag" their blip on the RADAR scope so now they know it is Delta 967. If you turn the transponder off, you essentially detag your blip. If you are in a busy area (New York, Boston, Atlanta) you will quickly be lost in the clutter. So they didnt really disappear, they just got lost in the clutter. There is no other way of tracking the aircraft unless it crashes, at which point the IFF transponder will automatically begin to transmit an emergency code, usually on Guard frequency.

And of course you can always fly under the RADAR's scan envelope and avoid detection by controls all together...

But what do I know, right Ebbs??

Yup... like I thought... nothing to add... thanks!

[Papa_Complex]

I was sitting right here, at my desk at work, reading emails from the Bandit List from people in NYC who were a block or two away, watching it happen. First people thought it was a sick joke, but then the shock descended.