Republican says something stupid...

[goof2]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

I've been over my posts backwards and forwards and I still don't see this change.

The best I can come up with is this quote:

But that was a response to this question by you:

I misunderstood your point in the post I was responding to. I thought you were adopting the logic that is was a lie because Obama never used the word "promise" rather than just responding to my post.

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

And none of those facts is a lie. The lie is in the implication that Ryan made, that President Obama was to blame because he "promised" to keep the plant open. Dismiss is as "mind reading" if you want, but that implication is present, and intentional. The promise and the "blame" go hand-in-hand, because if the president had promised to keep the plant open, he would have been taking responsibility for whether or not the plant remained open.

We see this differently. I don't see Ryan placing the blame on Obama for the plant closing, implied or otherwise. In my view the much stronger argument is that their was an implied promise by Obama to keep the plant open, but obviously opinions differ about that as well.. As (I believe) I said before Obama can be responsible for making "promises" he couldn't keep while still being absolved from fault for the factory closing.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

But back to the original point that the republicans are so far out of touch with facts as to be essentially running against a fictional opponent:



http://news.yahoo.com/romney-says-ob...-politics.html

This is, what, 3 weeks after running an entire convention with the theme "We built that," based on an out-of-context quote from the president, insinuating that the president said business owners didn't build their own businesses.

With this latest quote, Romney has described himself to the letter. So I guess he isn't so much running against a fictional opponent as he is running against himself. Considering his record in Massachussetts, I suppose that has always been the case with his presidential campaigns...

That is how campaigns have worked for the last 3 decades anyway. It wasn't the Obama campaign directly but their minions (just like the swiftboat crew were Bush's minions) who put out a video of a Ryan lookalike literally pushing an old woman off a cliff in a wheelchair for his proposed Medicare cuts. Clinton forgot to mention that in his DNC speech when he said Ryan and Obama's cuts were exactly the same amount. The Obama campaign also hammers Romney for writing an Op-Ed saying that GM and Chrysler should go bankrupt. They present the only possible result of this would have put a million people out of work. They fail to mention that under Obama GM and Chrysler went bankrupt.

Each candidate creates a caricature of their opponent and runs against that. The bad part about the debates is there is no where near enough time to actually discuss anything, it just ends up being sound bites.

They should hold an open discussion that lasts for hours and hours. They could have breaks every so often where each can fact check the other's stats/claims, check sources, and respond. Have open topics running concurrently for hours on end. Most people wouldn't watch it (they like their reality TV scripted and wouldn't be willing to fuck up a weekend) but I would watch the shit out of it.

[Smittie61984]

Originally Posted by goof2

They fail to mention that under Obama GM and Chrysler went bankrupt.

I thought GM/Chrysler never went technically bankrupt becuase President Obama went some old skool Chi-town politics and changed the bankruptcy laws so that GM/Ch couldn't go into bankruptcy where they could then renegotiate union contracts.

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by goof2

I misunderstood your point in the post I was responding to. I thought you were adopting the logic that is was a lie because Obama never used the word "promise" rather than just responding to my post.

Fair enough. As usual, I definitely could have worded my response better.

Originally Posted by goof2

That is how campaigns have worked for the last 3 decades anyway.

Granted. And as we've covered, both sides lie straight out of their asses at least as often as they defecate out of those same asses.

It just seems to me, lately, that the republicans have had a special brand of lying. I couldn't support Senator McCain in the last election because his would-be-heartbeat-away replacement is a vapid bimbo, but I respected the hell out of him for taking the microphone away from his supporters when they started bleating the really stupid shit. I get the distinct impression that Romney would have taken the "Obama is an Arab" soundbite and made it a campaign platform. Then converted to Islam himself, just because he seems to revel in hypocrisy. But I digress...

I do think that sometimes I judge republican behavior more harshly because I want to be able to support them. But their all-star lineups these days don't give me much to support. I mean, for shit's sake, Michelle Bachmann was a front-runner for a short time.

Originally Posted by goof2

They should hold an open discussion that lasts for hours and hours. They could have breaks every so often where each can fact check the other's stats/claims, check sources, and respond. Have open topics running concurrently for hours on end. Most people wouldn't watch it (they like their reality TV scripted and wouldn't be willing to fuck up a weekend) but I would watch the shit out of it.

I could get behind that.

[Papa_Complex]

Did anyone watch "60 Minutes" on the weekend? At least Obama's evasions were a touch more polished and less transparent than Romney's were.

[Smittie61984]

Originally Posted by goof2

They should hold an open discussion that lasts for hours and hours. They could have breaks every so often where each can fact check the other's stats/claims, check sources, and respond. Have open topics running concurrently for hours on end. Most people wouldn't watch it (they like their reality TV scripted and wouldn't be willing to fuck up a weekend) but I would watch the shit out of it.

I've wanted that for years. They put them both in a room with only them in it. No audience, moderators, or even SS. They check guns, knives, and brass knuckles at the door. I'd even argue that there shouldn't be cameras

[askmrjesus]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

I get the distinct impression that Romney would have taken the "Obama is an Arab" soundbite and made it a campaign platform. Then converted to Islam himself, just because he seems to revel in hypocrisy. But I digress...

Funniest thing I've read all day.

JC

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

I thought GM/Chrysler never went technically bankrupt becuase President Obama went some old skool Chi-town politics and changed the bankruptcy laws so that GM/Ch couldn't go into bankruptcy where they could then renegotiate union contracts.

They went through managed bankruptcies. In the case of GM anyway as I understand it they messed with the law so that bondholders got screwed instead of being the first to get paid. They also allowed all the bad stuff to get dumped on the bankrupt entity and all the good stuff transferred to the new company. They gave a nice chunk of that new company to the UAW (in the 17% range I believe) and while I don't know if they weren't allowed or just chose not to I don't believe they tried to vacate their union contracts. In exchange for a buttload of cash the government got majority stake in the new company (~60%, part of which was sold off in the IPO).

Romney, on the other hand, advocated for managed bankruptcies. Sounds strangely familiar doesn't it? Yet the Obama admin has continually hammered Romney for it and stated they saved more than 1 million jobs Romney would have eliminated.

[Smittie61984]

Originally Posted by goof2

...while I don't know if they weren't allowed or just chose not to I don't believe they tried to vacate their union contracts.

You're right. Though to a degree they went into a bankruptcy that never existed until then. The union contracts weren't allowed to be touched which is a major part of bankruptcy and why President Obama really saved the UAW and not GM.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

I've wanted that for years. They put them both in a room with only them in it. No audience, moderators, or even SS. They check guns, knives, and brass knuckles at the door. I'd even argue that there shouldn't be cameras

"Two men enter, one man leaves!"